[GPSCC-chat] Independence Epistle

Sat Jul 7 10:28:11 PDT 2012

Regarding Nader in 2000 -- In responding to "Nader is responsible for Bush  
winning", I usually respond that "I heard that more Democrats switched over 
and  voted for Republicans than for Nader"  People are very surprised  to 
hear that.  Has anyone else heard this same rebuttal?  I  wonder where the 
facts and numbers can be found to support it.

Judy Baker

In a message dated 7/7/2012 9:29:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
spencer.graves at prodsyse.com writes:

On 7/4/2012 10:29 AM, Cameron L. Spitzer  wrote:

I see  political arguments that depend on false assumptions way too often.  
 It's a bad habit we should try to break, a habit that lets nonsense sneak 
into the things people  believe.  I've been seeing it a lot in the comments 
on global warming  stories.

"Without  US troops in Saudi Arabia, the suicide mass murders of September  
11, 2001 would not have occurred."

"If I were king, the moon would be made of  cheese" is the common example.  
The sentence is true but it has no  meaning, because I'm not king.  Nothing 
that follows from a false  assumption truly follows.  It's one of the non 
sequiturs ("it does not  follow") the Greeks warned us about.  "If Ralph  
Nader hadn't run in 2000, Gore would have won."  We don't know  that.  Without 
Nader's pressure, Gore could have run further to the  right and lost by a 
landslide.  

Here a way to make Spencer's  point without the false assumption.  "There's 
evidence that the  presence of US troops in SA provoked Al Queda into 
attacking the WTC."   

1.  Like you,  Cameron, I usually avoid such absolute statements.  In this 
case, I  provided a footnote citing the most important evidence that I know 
supporting  this claim, and I felt that the evidence cited there supported 
the stronger  statement.  (I just polished that footnote in the copy of this 
note on  the web at 
"_http://occupy.pbworks.com/w/page/55119685/Liberty%20and%20Justice%20for%20All_ 
(http://occupy.pbworks.com/w/page/55119685/Liberty%20and%20Justice%20for%20All) ".)   I read somewhere that the Bush 
administration effectively acknowledged this by  removing all US troops from Saudi 
Arabia not too long after Sept. 11,  2001.  Checking just now, I found a 
Wikipedia article claiming that the  US withdrew most troops in 2003, but a few 
remain, allegedly at Erskin  Village, 20 km southeast of Riyadh.   

2.  I believe the available  evidence makes my claim different from your 
two examples.  

3.  This was intended to be  short -- and I admit it's polemical.  It seems 
to me that it would lose  its punch and brevity if it were reworded as you 
suggest.  I tried to  compensate by including footnotes.  Evidently, that 
was not adequate for  you (and probably others).  

It's a pet  peeve.  Thanks for your  patience.

Thanks for  your comment.  Spencer 

-Cameron in San José

On 07/04/2012  09:59 AM, Spencer Graves wrote:  
A few of  you may remember the polemic below from a year ago -- updated 
with  footnotes.  Enjoy.  Spencer 

I Pledge  Allegiance to Liberty and Justice for All  

I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice  for all, not restricted to the 
flag of the United States of America nor to  the republic for which it 
stands, because when we allow that restriction,  we give license to media 
executives and politicians to support state  terror internationally. Without US 
troops in Saudi Arabia, the suicide  mass murders of September 11, 2001 would 
not have occurred._1_ (mip://0a36c960/default.html#sdfootnote1sym)  If the US 
had not given weapons of  mass destruction to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, 
he could not plausibly  have had them in 2002._2_ 
(mip://0a36c960/default.html#sdfootnote2sym)  US actions against democracy in  countries around the 
world convinced generations of third world  politicians that the US would not 
allow them put the interests of their  people above the concerns of US 
multinational businesses._3_ (mip://0a36c960/default.html#sdfootnote3sym)  I know 
of no major enemy the US  has other than ones we have earned by opposing 
liberty and justice for  all. I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for 
all.  

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-- 

Spencer Graves, PE, PhD

President and Chief Technology Officer

Structure Inspection and Monitoring, Inc.

751 Emerson Ct.

San José, CA 95126

ph:  408-655-4567

web:  _www.structuremonitoring.com_ (http://www.structuremonitoring.com/) 

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