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Hi, John: <br>
<br>
<br>
I don't see the same problem you do. <br>
<br>
<br>
The promoters of the current corrupt system are highly
motivated to kill any move that will honestly limit their power.
I'm not an attorney, but I don't see how the current language would
strip anyone of their powers and rights as "natural persons". This
amendment would not affect the rights of sole proprietors. It's
possible that filing a fictitious name statement could create an
artificial entity, but I doubt it. Would this remove the "natural
person" rights from an actor who uses a stage name? I doubt it:
They are still "natural persons", "their houses, papers, and
effects" are still theirs and therefore should still be subject to
protection under the Fourth Amendment -- unless the said property
belonged to a corporation they created, registered in the Bahamas as
a tax dodge. Then they would be prohibited from using the extra
money they made by tax avoidance from influencing elections unduly.
<br>
<br>
<br>
In fact, I believe it would increase the rights of "natural
persons" by giving the government the right to regulate the
activities of "artificial entities". Our current system is one
dollar, one vote. This amendment would make it easier for citizens
to change this. <br>
<br>
<br>
Actually, I think the "Move to Ammend" is a secondary issue:
For me the number one problem is the media. For example, one study
of found that the US public spends on average $1,645 per person more
for health care than our counterparts in other developed countries,
and we get less for it in terms of a lower life expectancy, higher
infant mortality, etc. This amounts to roughly 4% of GDP. In other
words, 4 cents of every dollar you get pays for denying insurance
claims to people, medications that cost you far more than they
should, newer, more expensive and less effective medications than
those otherwise available, and paying doctors more than their
counterparts elsewhere. We could solve these problems if the media
didn't have a conflict of interest in perpetuating all these corrupt
practices. This 4 percent is only the tip of the iceberg. If you
add corruption in the finance and defense industries, we probably
pay on average between $4,000 and $10,000 per person per year for
the "free" broadcasting and the substantial portion of the print
media that is paid by advertising. <br>
<br>
<br>
Spencer <br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/7/2011 11:14 AM, John Thielking wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:1323285271.83160.YahooMailNeo@web111108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times
new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">No disrespect
to those who are working hard to circulate the current paper
form of this amendment which I also characterize below, but
we really need to slow down the process of putting forward
and endorsing specific amendment language, lest we end up in
the dark ages with fewer rights for those who actually do
something or anything involved with the functioning of a
corporation than we originally intended. For the complete
amendment language that I am referring to see <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.movetoamend.org">http://www.movetoamend.org</a>
and look for the am<var style="RIGHT: auto"
id="yui-ie-cursor"></var>endment link. Thanks.</span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">John
Thielking</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><font face="Arial" size="2">-----
Forwarded Message -----<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> John
Thielking <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pagesincolor@yahoo.com"><pagesincolor@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.reyes@lacity.org">"councilmember.reyes@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.reyes@lacity.org"><councilmember.reyes@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.Krekorian@lacity.org">"councilmember.Krekorian@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.Krekorian@lacity.org"><councilmember.Krekorian@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.zine@lacity.org">"councilmember.zine@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.zine@lacity.org"><councilmember.zine@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.koretz@lacity.org">"paul.koretz@lacity.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.koretz@lacity.org"><paul.koretz@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.cardenas@lacity.org">"councilmember.cardenas@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.cardenas@lacity.org"><councilmember.cardenas@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.alarcon@lacity.org">"councilmember.alarcon@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.alarcon@lacity.org"><councilmember.alarcon@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.parks@lacity.org">"councilmember.parks@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.parks@lacity.org"><councilmember.parks@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jan.Perry@lacity.org">"Jan.Perry@lacity.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jan.Perry@lacity.org"><Jan.Perry@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.wesson@lacity.org">"councilmember.wesson@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.wesson@lacity.org"><councilmember.wesson@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilman.rosendahl@lacity.org">"councilman.rosendahl@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilman.rosendahl@lacity.org"><councilman.rosendahl@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.englander@lacity.org">"councilmember.englander@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.englander@lacity.org"><councilmember.englander@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.garcetti@lacity.org">"councilmember.garcetti@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.garcetti@lacity.org"><councilmember.garcetti@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.huizar@lacity.org">"councilmember.huizar@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councilmember.huizar@lacity.org"><councilmember.huizar@lacity.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councildistrict15@lacity.org">"councildistrict15@lacity.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:councildistrict15@lacity.org"><councildistrict15@lacity.org></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:info@movetoamend.org">"info@movetoamend.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:info@movetoamend.org"><info@movetoamend.org></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:38 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Fw:
Amendment Name/Feedback<br>
</font><br>
<div id="yiv1830722925">
<div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times
new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span>Dear LA City Council:</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>This is the message I sent to Move To Amend
in response to your passage of a resolution
supporting specific amendment language to deprive
corporations of personhood. See below to see why I
think this resolution is premature at best and a
bad idea at worst. Thank you.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Sincerely,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>John Thielking</span></div>
<div><span>San Jose, CA</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><font face="Arial"
size="2">----- Forwarded Message -----<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
John Thielking <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pagesincolor@yahoo.com"><pagesincolor@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:info@movetoamend.org">"info@movetoamend.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:info@movetoamend.org"><info@movetoamend.org></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:21 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Amendment Name/Feedback<br>
</font><br>
<div id="yiv1830722925">
<div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff;
FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div>I'm a longtime supporter and member of
the Green Party and the Peace and Freedom
Party in CA, and I support and
occasionally participate in the Occupy
movement, but I am also a small business
owner (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.peacemovies.com/"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.peacemovies.com</a>)
and I think that the first part of the
latest version of your amendment leaves
99% of business owners out in the cold
when it comes to their civil rights in a
vain attempt to attack the rights of the
1% which have grown to be more important
in our current society than the rights of
the 99%.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The following statement was posted as a
comment on Facebook as a response to an
article posted about the LA City Council
passing a resolution supporting the
specific amendment language currently on
your web site:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Actually, not so fast. This latest
amendment would possibly classify sole
proprietors operating under a ficticious
business name as "non-persons". Also,
small corporations are often formed for
various reasons other than evading
liability and the operators of these
businesses would also be "non-persons".
You want to see an Ayn Rand style of
revolt from the real job creators (small
businesses employ most of the people in
the US), just try passing this amendment
as written. This particular version of
the Move To Amend amendment was probably
created less than one month ago (there is
another, much worse version still in
circulation on some paper petitions). I
suspect that the founding fathers had many
months if not years of deliberation before
they tried to put forth any specific form
of the constitution.* They were fully
aware of the implications of corporate
power even at that early date. Jefferson
badmouthed corporations and the banking
system I think, for instance. If they left
out an amendment that strips all people
involved with the functioning of a
corporation of their civil rights, they
must have had a good reason. If you think
this amendment won't strip PEOPLE as
opposed to paper entities of their rights,
who do you think runs the paper entities.
Who will have to give incriminating
evidence against their will and have their
life's work seized without a warrant? The
mainframe computer that issues the payroll
checks? We can't start thinking of jobs
as handouts and SETTLE for working for
"the man" who may now be our slave under
this amendment, but who still has the
power to determine our financial future.
If you want to form co-ops and SHARE
responsibility and culpability when you
create your financial future, fine go
right ahead and do THAT. But don't come
crying home to your sugardaddy boss and
ask him or her to "give you a job" while
you screw him or her over with an
amendment like this.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>That is all for now.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John Thielking</div>
<div>San J<var
id="yiv1830722925yui-ie-cursor"></var>ose,
CA</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
*Actually the founding fathers had a
Constitutional Convention from May 25, 1787 to
September 17, 1787 (116 days). The Bill Of Rights
was introduced 2 years later and was based on the
Virginia Declaration Of Rights which was adopted
in 1776. So James Madison had 2 years to come up
with the US Bill Of Rights after the
Constitutional Convention. And the ideas
contained in the Virginia Declaration percolated
for some 13 years.<br>
And were based in part <var
id="yiv1830722925yui-ie-cursor"></var>on the
British Bill of Rights, adopted 100 years earlier.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Spencer Graves, PE, PhD
President and Chief Technology Officer
Structure Inspection and Monitoring, Inc.
751 Emerson Ct.
San José, CA 95126
ph: 408-655-4567
web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.structuremonitoring.com">www.structuremonitoring.com</a>
</pre>
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