<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><p>Regulation and accountability for corporations yes. Applying natural 'inalienable' rights to artificial nonhuman entities absolutely not. Alienable rights means regulatability by and accountability to government. </p>
<p>Green is nature!</p>
<p>Drew<br><br><br></p>
<p>Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android</p>
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold:">To:</span>
</b>
RainbeauFriend@yahoo.com <RainbeauFriend@yahoo.com>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold:">Subject:</span>
</b>
Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
</b>
Wed, Jan 4, 2012 6:10:12 PM <br>
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<td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:14pt;"><div style=""><span style="">Drew,</span></div>
<div style=""><span style=""></span> </div>
<div style=""><span style="">I don't know if you read the rest of the thread on this, but the parts in brackets can be deleted so that all artificial entities are accountable in the same way. Also, having positive values for corps in the constitution instead of taking away all rights for just their subsidiaries that are in the US makes it possible for tentacles of US law to proliferate internationally so that we can require for instance that all corps that do business in the US are accountable to people generally and even impose laws with reach simillar to the Iranian banking ban, or bans on US corps from accepting bribes abroad, to require all suppliers of US based corps to be accountable. Sure the corps are still "human" to a limited degree, but in trade they are as accountable as any flesh and blood human being. Isn't that what we really want?</span></div>
<div style=""> </div>
<div style="">John Thielking<var id="yui-ie-cursor"></var></div>
<div style=""> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:14pt;">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt;"><font size="2" face="Arial">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Drew <rainbeaufriend@yahoo.com><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> "pagesincolor@yahoo.com" <pagesincolor@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January 4, 2012 9:51 AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook<br></font>
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<div style="">One of the holes in the wording of your proposal is if a corporation is screwing people left and right but is privately held ( some of which are very large and impactful) it gets to argue 'inalienable rights' preventing regulation by government. No John, artificial entities are artificial and deserve no natural rights protections that are accorded to natural entities. Artificial rights for artificial entities, natural rights for natural entities (humans, biological and ecological entities ). That will suffice small business quite well.</div>
<div style="">Green is natural!</div>
<div style="">Drew<br><br><br><br><br></div>
<div>Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android</div></td></tr></tbody></table>
<div id="yiv733227436_origMsg_">
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<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span> </b>John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com>; <br><b><span>To:</span> </b>John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com>; Caroline Yacoub <carolineyacoub@att.net>; Spencer Graves <spencer.graves@prodsyse.com>; <br><b><span>Cc:</span> </b>sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org <sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org>; <br><b><span>Subject:</span> </b>Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span> </b>Wed, Jan 4, 2012 5:29:20 PM <br></font>
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<div><span>Below is t<var id="yiv733227436yui-ie-cursor"></var>he complete draft amendment that I am proposing. Sections 2 is identical to and Section 3 is almost identical to the MTA amendment, located here: http://movetoamend.org/amendment</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Section 1: Artificial entities [that sell shares of themselves and/or their <br>subsidiaries to the public] shall be accountable to and serve the people in a manner to be determined by the people and/or by the federal, state or local legislatures. No part of the constitution can be used by artificial entities [that sell shares to the public] to argue against such entities' collective and individual accountabilities to the people and <br>requirements of service to the people. In no event shall an artificial entity [that sells shares to the public] be exempt from disclosing information to the people that is mandated to be disclosed by legislation enacted by the people and/or the federal, state or local legislatures.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Section 2 [Money is not speech and can be regulated]</span></div>
<div><span>Federal, State and local government shall regulate, limit, or prohibit contributions and expenditures, including a candidate’s own contributions and expenditures, for the purpose of influencing in any way the election of any candidate for public office or any ballot measure. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Federal, State and local government shall require that any permissible contributions and expenditures be publicly disclosed.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div><span>
<div>The judiciary shall not construe the spending of money to influence elections to be speech under the First Amendment.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Section 3 </div>
<div>Nothing contained in this amendment shall be construed to abridge the positive freedom of the press, though the freedom to not speak is limited by Section 1 and Section 2. </span></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Happy reading.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John Thielking</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:14pt;">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt;"><font size="2" face="Arial">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="yiv733227436hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com>; Caroline Yacoub <carolineyacoub@att.net>; Spencer Graves <spencer.graves@prodsyse.com> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Cc:</span></b> "sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org" <sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January 4, 2012 8:17 AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook<br></font>
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<div><span>Spencer (and anyone else posting long comments to Facebook),</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>I did not see the long list of references that you claimed you posted to Facebook. I have found that the Facebook software often automatically deletes comments that are entirely copy and pasted from somewhere else, such as when you spell check a long essay in Word and then copy-paste it into the Facebook comments interface. The workarround for this "feature" of Facebook is to paste your comment into the interface and then add a small amount of original typing before and after the pasted part of your comment. Then hit enter to cause your whole comment to post. The format looks like this: "original typing, pasted content<var id="yiv733227436yui-ie-cursor"></var>, original typing". This appears to be a "feature" of Facebook that allows quoting someone within an original comment but excludes people who post the same spam posting over and over. I hope this helps. Keep on plugging away at
this.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Sincerely,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>John Thielking</span></div>
<div></div>
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<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="yiv733227436hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> Caroline Yacoub <carolineyacoub@att.net>; Spencer Graves <spencer.graves@prodsyse.com> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Cc:</span></b> "sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org" <sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 3, 2012 11:14 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook<br></font>
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<div><span>In discussing the proposed MTA amendment with my room mate we kind of concluded that big corps that sell stock are not people, but private companies should be given more rights, as they now have under the present system. I've decided therefore to try to come up with amendment language that would target the top 2% of corps, namely those that sell stock. This also goes along with a proposal that a person named Andrew suggested to me on the train going back from SLO to SJ after Xmas. He mentioned to me that he is going to start a nonprofit that will organize small investor stockholders into voting blocks to present proposals at stockholder meetings. I'm waiting for Andrew to finish writing his proposal before discussing this too much further. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>My amendment language might say something like: "Artificial entities [that sell shares of themselves and/or their subsidiaries to the public] shall be accountable to and serve the people in a manner to be determined by the people and/or by the federal, state or local legislatures. No part of the constitution can be used by artificial entities [that sell shares to the public] to argue against such entities' collective responsibility to the people. In no event shall an artificial entity [that sells shares to the public] be exempt from disclosing information to the people that is mandated to be disclosed by legislation enacted by the people and/or the federal, state or local legislatures." </span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>This last clause could be called the "label it clause" to cover GMO's, chemical ingredients, etc as well as mandates of disclosures of news sources and funding sources for commercials. The different uses of "people" and "public" are<var id="yiv733227436yui-ie-cursor"></var> intentional and not interchangeable. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you want, you could even eliminate the "sell shares" parts and make it apply to all artificial entities without offending my sensibilities regarding the rights of small businesses. I have put the "sell shares" parts above in brackets to more clearly deliniate the possibilities here. The need to be accountable would necessarily be much smaller for smaller businesses (except for those spewing lead emissions or something like that) and so the rights of small artificial entities would not be excessively trampled upon by using such language. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Try that one on for size. Thanks.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John Thielking </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I will also post this to Facebook.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:14pt;">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt;"><font size="2" face="Arial">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="yiv733227436hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Caroline Yacoub <carolineyacoub@att.net><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> Spencer Graves <spencer.graves@prodsyse.com> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Cc:</span></b> John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com>; "sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org" <sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 3, 2012 10:02 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook<br></font>
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<div>It might keep them from buying Congress, but it can't keep them from buying the media.</div>
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<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="yiv733227436hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Spencer Graves <spencer.graves@prodsyse.com><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> Caroline Yacoub <carolineyacoub@att.net><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Cc:</span></b> John Thielking <pagesincolor@yahoo.com>; "sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org" <sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, January 3, 2012 9:48:38 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook<br></font> On 1/3/2012 9:40 PM, Caroline Yacoub wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt;">
<div>So Spencer, you don't really believe that the amendment, as it now stands, would hurt small business? I don't have much expertise in the business world, but I can't read it and feel sure about that.</div></div></blockquote> I think the net impact will more likely be positive. Major corporations today provide the money that elect the politicians, who then spend a substantial portion of their time trying to enact verbiage written by lobbyists for their major contributors. This would not work if a critical mass of the electorate paid directly for serious investigative journalism that would tell them in more detail how this works and would make it clearer to the electorate which candidates would actually legislate in the interest of the bottom 99%. The business model of the commercial media is selling behavior change in their audience to advertisers. The 1% does not what the public to
know
exactly the many ways in which they get welfare, and they can retaliate against honestly liberal media. They know they do not need to feed the mouth that bites them. I'd be surprised if passing that amendment would have an immediate, dramatic effect. However, it would make it more difficult for the 1% to buy congress and continue the current massive transfers of wealth from the 99% to the 1%. Spencer
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div>Caroline</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt;">
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<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:0;MARGIN:5px 0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;HEIGHT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-TOP:0px;" class="yiv733227436hr"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Spencer Graves <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><spencer.graves@prodsyse.com></a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> John Thielking <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><pagesincolor@yahoo.com></a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-rfc2396E">"sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org"</a> <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org></a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, January 3, 2012 9:33:32 PM<br><b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GPSCC-chat] I Now Have 2 Community Pages On Facebook<br></font> Hi, John, et al.: It is in the best short term interest of the venal 1% to claim that repealing corporate personhood would hurt small business. I don't know if that is what is happening, but I would expect that Citizens United and similar organizations would be paying people to write messages on Facebook with claims like, ""SOPA would deprive small businesses (ie web sites) of their property (their domain names and access to their sites) without due process". Big money in politics today is often spent (a) doing focus groups to find out what kinds of arguments against it resonate with people, (b) following that with sample surveys to pick the strongest of several likely candidates, then (c) circulating that message in a variety of ways, often concealing the
source. The concerns about SOPA and NDAA are real, but I the primary impact on small business I see from repeal of corporate personhood is that it would deprive the 1% of certain tools they now use to increase their wealth and power at the expense of small businesses. (more on your Facebook page citing research that social mobility is lower in the US, where the power of corporations has grown substantially over the past 125 years, than in much of Europe, which reportedly does not have corporate personhood.) Spencer Graves On 1/3/2012 8:44 AM, John Thielking wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
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<h6 class="yiv733227436uiStreamMessage yiv733227436uiStreamHeadline">
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><font size="4">Folks,</font></div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"> </div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><font size="4">I now have two community pages on Facebook which may be of interest to you. Check them out if you like/if you have time.</font></div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><font size="4">Thanks.</font></div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"> </div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><font size="4">Sincerely,</font></div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"> </div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><font size="4">John Thielking</font></div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"> </div>
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Small-Businesses-Are-People-Too/169333889834098"><font color="#3b5998" size="4">Small Businesses Are People Too</font></a></div></h6><span class="yiv733227436messageBody">
<h6 id="yiv733227436id_4f0326d60c5065c87547689" class="yiv733227436text_exposed_root yiv733227436text_exposed"><font size="4">A prime example of the contradictions within the movement and the need to think over carefully the MTA Section 1 is the case of the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA). SOPA would deprive small businesses (ie web sites) of their property (their domain names and access to their sites) without due process (big businesses could merely petition a judge claiming violations of copyright and the sites would be <span class="yiv733227436text_exposed_show">shut down for a minimum of 5 days before a hearing could be held to present evidence). Some in the Occupy movement are busy protesting this unconstitutional move by Congress, while at the same time pushing for passage of MTA Section 1 which would make their claims of unconstitutionality of SOPA moot. So which is it? Do you support rights for small businesses or don't you?</span></font></h6>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">And </font></div>
<div> </div>
<h6 class="yiv733227436uiStreamMessage yiv733227436uiStreamHeadline">
<div class="yiv733227436actorDescription yiv733227436actorName"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peacemoviescom/253761754669963"><font color="#3b5998" size="4">Peacemovies.com</font></a><var id="yiv733227436yui-ie-cursor"></var></div></h6>
<h6 class="yiv733227436uiStreamMessage"><span class="yiv733227436messageBody"><font size="4">The final post for 2011: Go to </font><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.peacemovies.com/offhollywood.html"><font size="4"><font color="#3b5998"><span>www.peacemovies.com/</span><span class="yiv733227436word_break"></span></font>offhollywood.html</font></a><font size="4"> for a quick peek at the possibilities of legally streaming content for "free" that is often of higher quality, more original and almost always less violent than the typical Hollywood fare. If you like what you just streamed, please donate generously to the site that provided the content. Thanks.</font></span></h6>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv733227436fsm yiv733227436fwn yiv733227436fcg">
<div class="yiv733227436uiAttachmentTitle"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.peacemovies.com/offhollywood.html"><font color="#3b5998" size="4">Peacemovies.com: The Off-Hollywood Page</font></a><font size="4"> </font></div><span class="yiv733227436caption"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.peacemovies.com/"><font color="#3b5998" size="4">www.peacemovies.com</font></a></span><font size="4"> </font>
<div><font size="4">non-violent movies, family entertainment</font></div></div></div></div>
<h6 class="yiv733227436uiStreamMessage"><font size="4"><br class="yiv733227436yui-cursor"></font></h6></span>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt;"> </div></div></span></div><br>
<fieldset class="yiv733227436mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> <br><pre>_______________________________________________
sosfbay-discuss mailing list
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-abbreviated">sosfbay-discuss@cagreens.org</a>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://lists.cagreens.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sosfbay-discuss">http://lists.cagreens.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sosfbay-discuss</a></pre></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><pre class="yiv733227436moz-signature">--
Spencer Graves, PE, PhD
President and Chief Technology Officer
Structure Inspection and Monitoring, Inc.
751 Emerson Ct.
San José, CA 95126
ph: 408-655-4567
web: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv733227436moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.structuremonitoring.com/">www.structuremonitoring.com</a>
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