[Sosfbay-discuss] [usgp-media] Tillman was apparently fragged! Murdered by M-16 at close range

[JamBoi]

Hey Nan,

I'd read Goff's and other narrative reconstructive
efforts.  Due to the extensiveness of the coverup I
always had an intuition that he'd probably pissed
someone off, got fragged and then the murder covered
up. 

It never made sense to me that it was simply a case of
'friendly fire' since even as embarassing as that
would be I'd have a hard time accepting that it would
be enough to drive such a comprehensive fraud that was
carried out on so many levels.  IMO it had to be
something really big (like a fragging) to get that
treatment.  So I never put much stock in the forest of
details given in the various reconstruction efforts. 
This is no criticism of Goff or the other reporters, I
just didn't buy the bigger picture that was portrayed
in their narrative reconstructions.

I'll stick with 'apparently fragged' because with
three M-16 rounds to the forehead at less than 10
yards, it pretty much comes down to either a) an
accident (and I don't buy that because again why the
extensive coverup unless there was some intense guilty
feelings that were being covered up) or b) murder (ie.
fragged). 

Would this be a crime of passion by an incensed fellow
soldier who blew his cool after Tillman had become
unpopular with the unit or a premeditated 'hit'
ordered from above due to impolitic statements of
Tillman?  Either way it took the unit operating as a
team to large degree to achieve this fraud.  I could
believe either scenario and since my bias is towards
simpler answers I'd probably lean towards the former.

Finally it makes me wonder who the triggerman was? 
Who was 10 yards away??? Who was in the vicinity?  We
can't know for sure, but Goff says the contingent
consisted of: 

"{SSG} Weeks took Pat, one Afghan militiaman, Brian
O’Neal (a new Ranger), and two other Rangers (we do
not have their names) with him, and began mounting a
small spur west of the road."

BTW, The Afghani was also killed.

BTW, Here's Goff's articles on Tillman:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/index.shtml#tillman

Here's some fellow bloggers with similar thoughts as
mine:
http://donspoliticalblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/was-pat-tillman-murdered.html
http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2007/07/new-details-support-old-story-pat.html


Green is Just!

Drew Johnson
California

--- Nan Garrett <nannetteg at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Okay, I have to apologize. *Some* of this IS new,
> but even
> drawing on information that Stan Goff already had,
> it draws
> different conclusions.
> 
> Stan Goff, a investigative reporter, writer,
> speaker, and
> NC Green, was also retired or former Army Special
> Forces.
> Goff's theory on Tillman, after extensive research,
> both
> speaking directly to folks who were ordered to not
> discuss
> this and trying to get open records requests and
> supporting
> Tillman's family in trying to get answers was that
> basically: the unit was sent on a fool's errand to
> begin
> with; they were ordered to deliver a tank or some
> piece of
> heavy equipment at a set date and location that
> involved a
> certain number of miles through rough terrain which
> would
> have been tough if everything went right; they had a
> breakdown, their commanders ordered them to continue
> despite there being no specific time-oriented task
> for
> which the equipment was needed, so their unit split
> up
> perhaps so that if the first part got through this
> mountainous area prone to enemy guerrilla type
> actions,
> they could send help back; the part of the unit
> Tillman was
> with came through the mountainous narrow pass as
> gunfire
> broke out, that NO ONE, either the first unit or
> Tillman's
> group, EVER specifically saw where the gunfire came
> from,
> and that everybody just started shooting; and that
> despite
> the fact that most there on the ground believed
> Tillman has
> been killed by 'friendly' fire, the folks in
> Washington
> needed a poster boy hero and tagged it as 'died in
> action,
> killed by enemy fire'. 
> 
> Although I'm not sure I'd use Drew's subject line of
> 'apparently fragged' and would have more likely
> chose 'may
> have been fragged', another weird thing that came
> out in
> Goff's papers was that Tillman had been publicly
> complaining about the incompetence of the military
> and that
> perhaps they should have never gone into Afghanistan
> or
> Iraq. 
> 
> In addition, the closing comment about what
> Tillman's last
> comments to a fellow soldier appear to be one more
> subtle
> slam against the Tillman family's atheism, which
> they have
> been criticized for with the military anyway. 
> 
> Goff's conclusions: gross incompetence plus military
> coverup because they needed a 'hero'. This implies
> murder.
> 
> Interesting. With both Goff's investigative report
> and this
> below combined, I wonder who would have murdered
> Tillman
> unless it was ordered from higher ups. But the truth
> is,
> with stress and combat and fatigue and unreasonable
> assignments, all of which point back to the fact
> that we
> shouldn't have been there to begin with and the
> whole
> campaign has been run horribly inefficiently, it is
> possible he was 'fragged'. Unless his fellow troops
> start
> talking, and they have been under continuous orders
> to NOT
> talk of this matter, we may never know. 
> 
> I am curious, Drew, what specifically did you read
> way back
> when for you to say that you 'suspected this all
> along'? 
> 
> Nan Garrett

> --- JamBoi <jamboi at yahoo.com> wrote:

Nan, I just took the time to again read Goff's
reconstruction and actually this new report completely
alters the story.  Goff didn't have anything about 
1) an M-16 
2) to the forehead 
3) from less that 10 yards.  All that indeed is news
with entirely new implications! 

Goff talks about "less than 40 Meters" distance and
"high velocity projecticles" (unlike M-16), rocks and
SAW rounds (again not M-16 rounds). Here's his guess:

"The personnel aboard Baker’s Hummer saw Pat Tillman
and Brian O’Neal at less than 40 meters away with
their distinctive US battle-rattle silhouettes,"

AND 

"In the hail of fire that was punctuated by tracers
chattering through the lethal cone of high-velocity
projectiles, stones were thrown at high enough speed
to wound Pat in the wrist and leg.  It is also known
that SAW ammunition hit the body armor that covered
his chest and abdomen."

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/062306_tillman_files4.shtml

Green is Truth!

Drew Johnson
California

> --- JamBoi <jamboi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > I suspected this all along so I'm not in the least
> > surprised.  Saddened but not surprised.
> > 
> > 
> > Green is Truth!
> > 
> > Drew Johnson
> > 
> >
>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070726/ap_on_re_us/tillman_friendly_fire
> > 
> > AP: New details on Tillman's death
> > 
> > By MARTHA MENDOZA, AP National Writer Thu Jul 26,
> 7:59
> > PM ET
> > 
> > SAN FRANCISCO - Army medical examiners were
> suspicious
> > about the close proximity of the three bullet
> holes in
> > Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success
> to
> > get authorities to investigate whether the former
> NFL
> > player's death amounted to a crime, according to
> > documents obtained by The Associated Press.
> > 
> > "The medical evidence did not match up with the,
> with
> > the scenario as described," a doctor who examined
> > Tillman's body after he was killed on the
> battlefield
> > in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
> > 
> > The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said
> that
> > the bullet holes were so close together that it
> > appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16
> fired
> > from a mere 10 yards or so away.
> > 
> > Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal
> > investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades
> whether he
> > was disliked by his men and whether they had any
> > reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The
> > Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at
> the
> > hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire
> accident.
> > 
> > The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in
> > 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this
> week
> > by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom
> of
> > Information Act request.
> > 
> > Among other information contained in the
> documents:
> > 
> > • In his last words moments before he was killed,
> > Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to
> > shut up and stop "sniveling."
> > 
> > • Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory
> > e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay
> as
> > the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire
> > investigation that resulted in administrative, or
> > non-criminal, punishments.
> > 
> > • The three-star general who kept the truth about
> > Tillman's death from his family and the public
> told
> > investigators some 70 times that he had a bad
> memory
> > and couldn't recall details of his actions.
> > 
> > • No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at
> the
> > scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any
> > government equipment struck.
> > 
> > The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been
> > criticized in recent months for lying about the
> > circumstances of Tillman's death. The military
> > initially told the public and the Tillman family
> that
> > he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later
> did
> > the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by
> fellow
> > Rangers.
> > 
> > With questions lingering about how high in the
> Bush
> > administration the deception reached, Congress is
> > preparing for yet another hearing next week.
> > 
> > The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round
> of
> > punishments, including a stinging demotion of
> retired
> > Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to
> > military officials who spoke on condition of
> anonymity
> > because the punishments under consideration have
> not
> > been made public.
> > 
> > In more than four hours of questioning by the
> Pentagon
> > inspector general's office in December 2006,
> Kensinger
> > repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony,
> and
> > sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions
> that
> > he did not recall something.
> > 
> > At one point, he said: "You've got me really
> scared
> > about my brain right now. I'm really having a
> > problem."
> > 
> > Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long
> suggested
> > that her son was deliberately killed by his
> comrades,
> > said she is still looking for answers and looks
> > forward to the congressional hearings next week.
> > 
> > "Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about
> > justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers.
> The
> > nation has been deceived," she said.
> > 
> > The documents show that a doctor who autopsied
> > Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot
> > wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took
> the
> > unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources
> > Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an
> official at
> > the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the
> CID
> > would consider opening a criminal case.
> > 
> > "He said he talked to his higher headquarters and
> they
> > had said no," the doctor testified.
> > 
> > Also according to the documents, investigators
> pressed
> > officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman
> has
> > been asking all along.
> > 
> > "Have you, at any time since this incident
> occurred
> > back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any
> > information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was
> killed by
> > anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an
> > investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.
> > 
> > Scott, and others who were asked, said they were
> > certain the shooting was accidental.
> > 
> > Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders
> > whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was
> > jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered
> > arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired
> and
> > well-liked.
> > 
> > The documents also shed new light on Tillman's
> last
> > moments.
> > 
> > It has been widely reported by the AP and others
> that
> > Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he
> was
> > killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving
> his
> > arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat
> > (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.
> > 
> > But the latest documents give a different account
> from
> > a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days
> after
> > Tillman was killed.
> > 
> > The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was
> hugging
> > the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God,
> help
> > us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your
> > (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you;
> you
> > need to do something for yourself, you sniveling
> ..."
> > 
> > ___
> > 
> > Associated Press reporters Scott Lindlaw in Las
> Vegas
> > and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to
> this
> > story.

___________________

JamBoi: Jammy, The Sacred Cow Slayer
The Green Parties' #1 Blogger
http://dailyJam.blogspot.com

"To the brave belong all things"
Celt's invading Etrusca reply to nervous Romans around 400BC

"Live humbly, laugh often and love unconditionally" (anon)


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/